00:00 Hello, I'm Seth Simmons and welcome to season one, episode 10 of Opt Out. Opt Out is a show where I sit down with passionate people to learn why privacy matters to them, the tools and techniques they found and leveraged, and where we encourage and inspire others towards personal privacy and data sovereignty. Wondering what it's like to take the dive and switch to Linux and CalyxOS at once? Or how does the recent push for vaccine mandates impact our journey towards privacy?

This episode, we're gonna sit down with Chris Blick to chat about his journey to Linux and CalyxOS, security and privacy and cryptocurrency, our thoughts on the privacy implications of vaccine mandates and much more. Welcome on to Opt Out, Chris. - Hey, thanks Seth. - It's great to finally be able to sit down and talk directly. I know we've had some back and forth on Twitter over the, I don't know, it's been a while that I've been following you and we've been kind of in similar circles, but just wanted to say I really respect your approach and attitude towards privacy and security in general and just your willingness to boldly call out scams, security risks, privacy gotchas, lots of different things in the cryptocurrency space.

So I'm really thrilled that you're taking a deeper dive into privacy as a general topic lately. But for those listeners who may not be familiar with you, do you mind introducing yourself a little bit? - Yeah, sure. And thank you for having me on because a lot of what I've been doing lately, which we'll talk about, was inspired by your podcast. And especially by the first episode, I think it was the first one you did with, with the gentleman from Techlore.

- Yeah. - Yeah, which introduced me to his channel, which really got me down a road where I realized I needed to make some drastic changes fast. And so, but we can talk about that in a minute. So, but myself, I currently, most of the day I'm spending on a project called DeFi Watch, which is sort of like a watchdog type. It's, it's an informal, I would say, watchdog effort over DeFi and really approaching DeFi with a trustless, decentralized attitude.

You know, and I use Bitcoin as the benchmark for pretty much the most decentralized thing we know. And I apply that to, to DeFi, mostly on Ethereum, but now on layer twos as well. And when you apply that, that level of, that, that level of, of standard to what's going on with DeFi, most of DeFi sort of falls way short on what you would expect. And not only do they fall way short, but they're not being translated transparent, you know, about those shortcomings.

So that's really what my focus has been lately. And, um, it's really been around exposing those facts to users, uh, of these protocols, because whether they're putting in $5 or, or 500,000 or $5 million, um, I've talked to people on every level that I just mentioned, and a lot of them just don't know what they don't know about the protocols that they're using. You know, so I've been, um, focused on that. But before all that, I, I was always, um, uh, into Bitcoin for years, um, Monero.

And, uh, prior to that, you know, the, uh, libertarian for most of my life and really, um, uh, constitutionalist American, you know, sort of focused in on, on the, the Liberty aspects of, of, uh, politics. So, uh, and I worked in marketing for a long time too, but that's the boring stuff. Yeah. And by, by DeFi for anybody or DeFi, sorry, I think someone told me that I say that wrong by DeFi. Uh, you're talking about the, the quote unquote decentralized finance projects that are being built on, on, uh, cryptocurrencies like Ethereum on blockchains like Ethereum.

Um, and those, those tools that can be used for lots of different things, but like you said, they, they, they mostly claim to be decentralized, not all are. So I know you've done a ton of work with breaking down what that means for really most, the, the most common projects to give people the info they need. Yeah. Yeah. And I, um, like I said, like I've, I've always been sort of a Liberty oriented person. Bitcoin really appealed to me for that reason as, as did Monero.

Uh, and, and it still does. And, uh, when I saw this stuff developing on Ethereum, I started to think, oh, now we have a decentralized services or a set of decentralized services we can use with our already decentralized cryptocurrency. Um, but you know, over the past a year or two, as I've been studying it, I realized it wasn't as decentralized as we all thought it was in the beginning, you know? So it was really about, um, like I said, educating users and, uh, making sure that, that people like, like myself and like you and, and others who really value decentralization, trustlessness, and also privacy, um, making sure that users that value those things know that they're not getting a lot of that with the DeFi applications on Ethereum.

And, uh, also in the process, hopefully encouraging developers to consider these, these principles more when they're building and developing these smart contracts, you know, that's been, and I've had a lot of young developers reach out to me and ask, what can we do to get better at this and to take these things into consideration? Most of the stuff that's really successful right now is coming from, you know, is being funded from Silicon Valley. Um, you know, the same sort of money that's flowed into big tech for years, you know?

So I don't have super high hopes, uh, for the, the, the largest movers in that space. Uh, so, but you know, and people get confused why I would talk about DeFi on Ethereum and also Liberty and also, um, what I think about lockdowns and vaccine mandates. Like they say, why don't you just, you should, people are so used to people focusing in on one thing on Twitter. From my point of view, it's all connected. It's all Liberty. It's all related to privacy.

It's all related to self-sovereignty. Um, so to me it's, I just can't separate these things out. So that's where I've been focusing though. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely agree. I think it's privacy in particular is not something you can just kind of separate and be like, Oh, like I focus on privacy, but I don't really care about any other like approaches to freedom or even political views or, um, like you said, libertarian views. Privacy is not something that you can separate from everyday life because it is a, it's a vital, essential, central part to everything that we do.

Whether or not you choose to do things in a private way or a public way, or don't worry about that. Privacy is something that, that ties in and interlocks into every facet of life. Um, and I'm curious what it was that woke you up to the need for personal privacy. Well, um, I guess what woke me up was, and I'm sure this is an answer you would hear a lot, but it was Snowden, you know, coming out and exposing Prism and exposing, you know, it was, it's interesting how things work in life, right?

Where there are things you, you see and you, in the back of your mind, you think, Hmm, that's weird, you know, or, you know, it's almost like the matrix in a way where, you know, you see glimpses of this or that, but you never put it all together until you have that magic moment where it all coalesces. And that could be triggered by one person, or it could be triggered by something you read or, um, like when I had that magic moment with Bitcoin, it was after, um, watching an online course about the history of money.

And then I just had this aha moment. But when, when Snowden really started revealing stuff through, um, Glenn Greenwald and the Guardian and everything and I'm reading, I said, wow, you know, it just struck me, um, exactly what the, the level and the depth of what he was putting out there. And at first it was hard to believe. I was like, of course, this is happening. Of course, this is happening. We should have known this was happening before he said anything about it.

Yeah. You know, and, uh, that's what really woke me up to, um, really the, the dangers of, of big government plus big tech, you know, and living in a world where governments, um, feel like they have the authority to sort of commandeer information from anywhere they can get it, you know, and the abuses of power, you know, the, the, uh, sort of circumvention of, of the bill of rights, you know, and, uh, you know, ignoring the fourth amendment or saying it doesn't apply to digital information in the same way it applies to your papers in your filing cabinet and stuff like that.

So that was the moment. It really woke me up, um, that we needed to focus on this, not just as a, as a, because before that I was a big supporter of like the electronic frontier foundation and other projects that were really focused on, um, you know, on digital rights and human rights online. And stuff like that. But this was the moment where it became a true Liberty issue for me and a, uh, a big government overreach issue. Uh, so that, that was really the magic moment for me where I realized I needed to do more.

Yeah. I think like you mentioned the, the key thing with that for me and for a lot of people was that it just kind of showed the scope and confirmed suspicions that a lot of people had had in such a, a blatant way and showed how the U S government had just absolutely been running.

10:00 over our freedoms and our claims to digital privacy with whatever ends they said were in mind. But it definitely was something where once you see that scope and you see the tools available and you see the ways that surveillance is being done and can be done, it's certainly hard not to wake up after really seeing and digesting that kind of information. What is it about privacy that makes it such an important topic to you today? Well, you know, since Snowden put the information out into the world about what was going on, you know, it was also sort of a moment where we realized that the government was not on our side with regards to privacy. And with regard, I mean, we already knew they weren't on our side with regards to liberty in general, especially since 9-11, which is now 20 years ago. And when was the Snowden release? Was that? I don't remember what year that was. I think it was 2013. So eight years ago now.

Eight years ago. Wow. So, but at that moment, it sort of made it very clear that the government didn't have our best interests at heart when it came to digital privacy, you know, and didn't, they weren't looking out for us. They were looking out for what they called national interests, which, you know, how that goes usually. So, you know, and then after that, when Snowden became villainized, and to this day, he's villainized. To this day, I think if he took a vote in the U.S.

now at this point, he would be considered still an outlaw, you know, in a negative light. I mean, Donald Trump, when he was president, he wanted to execute the guy. So it's like, you know, so with all that going on, and with the loss of the value of privacy for so many people, not just Americans, but people around the world, you know, and this attitude of if you have nothing to hide, what are you worried about, which is only growing, you know, it's not going down, it's going up from my point of view, you know, and so I think that we as the people who understand why privacy matters, and why you need why you want it there when you need it, you want those tools there, not when you know, when you don't need it, it's not as valuable to you. But when you need it, you're going to be really glad it's there.

You know, so and this could be this generation, next generation, it might be two generations away where that actually happens, especially for Americans. But that's how I consider this right now. A lot of what we're doing. I mean, some of it does matter today, as we'll talk about, you know, there are situations where people are being singled out, because of things they've done online, or things they've said, or things they put out into the world, or things they've done on their phone.

It's a small, you know, that's not happening a lot today, but it is happening. But I do think that that Orwell was right, you know, and I think we're heading in that direction, where monitoring is going to be 24 seven, and there's going to be a real need for privacy. And I want the next generation to have the tools. So I want to support those tools the best way that I can as a non developer, as like a regular person. So that's how that's how I look at privacy today, and why I want to engage in it myself, you know, I want to protect those rights.

Yeah, I definitely agree. I think that's something that we talk about a lot on opt out is just that idea that maybe you're in a country right now, where you don't feel the need for privacy, like you don't feel that it's an immediate need that could be life or death, or could be the difference between having a job that you want, or not having a job or that kind of thing. But the key to me, like you mentioned, is making sure both that the tools that we do need in those scenarios are around that they're well built, that they're well tested, and making sure that as many people as possible understand how to use those tools, understand why they should use those tools. So there's something like that happens, it's not everyone's scrambling and trying to figure out what in the world to do now. But it's hopefully many, many people well prepared, understand the toolset, understand the things they need to do, and are ready when it does become something that could be life threatening, or job threatening, or lots of different

scenarios like that. And we've seen many countries over the years seem free, quickly shift over, and then many people, it's too late, and they don't have access to the things they need. So really just making sure. And the other thing, yeah, in that regard, what people constantly forget is that not just what you're doing on social media, but everything you're doing on your devices, a lot of times, if you're using the wrong device, is being stored sort of in perpetuity. So you could be doing stuff today, uploading it to iCloud, forget about it, and then 10 years, you might even delete it. And then 10 years later, something happens and Apple decides, okay, we're going to scan all your past iCloud data. Yeah, we didn't actually delete it. But we're going to scan it for anti-government material. We're going to scan it for anything that we consider dangerous to the United States or to Europe. You have no idea. So digital lives forever. So anything you're doing digitally, unless you're an expert and you're in firm control

of your data, which 99.9% of people are not, it lives forever, whether you like it or not. So it's not just about, okay, I'm starting privacy now. And from now on, I'm perfectly safe. Everything you've done up until now is, is jeopardizing you as well. You know, so every minute you wait before you engage in, in stronger privacy and OPSEC, you're sort of leaving that trail of breadcrumbs that could come back to haunt you in the future. That's the way I look at that, that as well.

Yeah. It's certainly something where for most people it's, it's not too late or, or hopefully won't be too late for a long time, but it is something where the earlier you start, the easier your life's going to be, is you kind of take those steps down the privacy journey. You'll have less cleanup to do. You'll have less kind of loose ends that you have to kind of, you have to worry about over the years. And it'll definitely be easier the sooner you get into that privacy journey, even if it's just small steps up front. But yeah, it is important that people realize the need and start as soon as possible, get community around them that can help them find tools that, that fit their needs and just really start learning about how to use those things. You mentioned the, the typical, I have nothing to hide.

So why should I care about privacy myth? Are there any other common myths about personal privacy that you've run into? Well, I mean, you know, the common ones are really common is that one. I mean, with friends and family of mine, that's the one that always comes back. Or, you know, when I talk about, and you probably run into this, too, when you talk about the steps you're taking to, to maintain privacy and to, to build up your defenses. In this day and age, when you describe these things you're doing to people who are just watching the news all day and just engaging with social media on a base level and just sort of, you know, being normal people, we sound like criminals.

We sound like- We sound like- We sound like- For sure. We, I, I, I mean, I've heard it before that, you know, if you're out there, um, you know, trying to, to use a prepaid SIM so that, um, your, your phone company can't, uh, track this or that, or if you're out there using a, a privacy oriented operating system, or if you're, um, you know, using, um, pseudonyms or disposable email addresses, et cetera. This is, and, and by the way, it's not just people, but also the government, you know, the myth that they propagate is if you're doing this kind of stuff, you definitely have something to hide and you're probably a criminal, you know?

Yeah. So it's, it's such a challenge I find these days to, um, I mean, forget about sort of convincing people to get more private like this. Just convincing them that you're not out of your mind and not engaging in some kind of illicit stuff is very challenging. And I really think that's only going to get worse because I don't have a lot of faith in, um, in the media or in the government or in anybody who's spreading these messages to stop. You know, it's, it's, it's propaganda that's designed to sabotage privacy efforts and to stop people from going down that road, you know, to make it seem like it's a pointless endeavor.

It's a very clear agenda that is out there, you know, and they're winning because people are just, they just go along with whatever they're told. You know? So it's like, again, it's like, we're the small minority that get it. And we're always going to be the small minority, unfortunately, um, until something really drastic happens, you know, something could, you know, earth shattering, that'll change everybody, everybody's perspective on government, uh, you know, or something like that.

But until then it's like, we're, we're the nuts, you know, and, you know, it's funny, like the same way a lot of people thought about, um, preppers for a long time. Right. They thought they were crazy. They thought they were, they were lunatics. Um, and then this, uh, lockdown situation came along and all of a sudden everybody's a

20:00 prepper everybody yeah everybody's locking themselves in with tons of food and toilet paper and looking at and looking back at old videos of preppers on youtube and saying wow i wish i had that bunker right now it's like you know if something earth shattering happens like that um with regard to privacy it could really change things but until then uh it's going to be tricky to to navigate i really do think so yeah i think two things pop out at me from from what you mentioned i think the first is there is a lot that regular people who are not criminals can learn from criminals and the things that they use the tools they use the approaches they take there's there's a lot to be a lot to be gained a lot of good research that can be done by seeing what they do because whatever they're doing whether or not it's criminal in actuality or immoral or not whatever they're doing they have a real serious oftentimes life or death or freedom or prison imprisonment uh issue at hand and so they they know the need for their own privacy and so uh it's really helpful a

lot of times to look at what criminals are using look at what persecuted political and religious minorities are using look at what people who could even be very immoral very evil people look at what they're using and see the tools that they use because they can be a good hint as to how we can protect our own privacy as well so it's there's always a little bit of an interesting piece there with with what criminals use it can be a helpful research angle but the okay see we're not gonna make you now you you've eliminated yourself from the job of head of public relations for for privacy because this is see the challenge that we are gonna have is convincing the world that we're not criminals but if we go out there and say study what criminals are i mean i don't know i don't disagree with you but i also think that that we're gonna keep running into the situation more and more where anybody who's doing this stuff must be a criminal you know that kind of attitude so it's like and that will be the

push yes that will be the push from governments from uh authoritarian regimes that will be the push because they want to to give people a false sense of security when they give up their privacy because they want them to feel like if i am a good person i don't care about privacy and i allow my government to see everything i do but i think i think there's two key things i mean one that is an objectively false thing so i i hope that we're able to to wake people up through that um but i think the second thing is a lot of things have shifted in the last year and a half that i don't think i saw shifting this quickly and a lot of people have woken up and i think there's been a i think there really has been a resurgence in the privacy communities there has been a resurgence in the the real freedom movements around at least the us and many parts of the world because they've seen clear blatant pushes against our freedoms in other ways and so when they see pushback on freedoms that they hold near and dear they realize the need

for privacy at that point so i think we have seen a lot of a lot of people shift and wake up but that will only make the the mainstream media and government approach even stronger against those privacy tools and against those people to try to make it seem as if they are things that only criminals would use or only people who are doing bad things would use yeah i i definitely agree with that i think it's only going to get stronger and it's going to be a it's going to be probably the most important battle of our lifetimes the last the last the last frontier you know for authoritarianism to just settle in and have full control and uh unfortunately a lot of blockchain based technologies are going to contribute to that and make it easy loss of privacy you know uh people don't recognize that fully yet i think bitcoin is is a great amazing innovation changing the world for the better as far as solving problems we had creating the government control they can't control the economics of but at the same time it's privacy with bitcoin and the

combination of that regular on the end uh it's creating right and um there's other digital being created as a result of bitcoin's invention like technology that people are looking at saying okay okay a lot of good points you know it's built on blockchain you know it gives people um the ability to own their we don't google and twitter us with logins in our decentralized identity wallet and control it ourselves uh but at the same time there's a really dark side to the whole thing that nobody's talking about yet and that's that that technology is going to make it much much easier to get rules as they come up i've seen passport is a great example if decentralized blockchain identity right it would be simple for a vaccine instantly you know and require you to have so it's um it's a double-edged sword and we're in the process of creating a lot of tech that's going to in the near future yeah let's go ahead and let's get a little controversial and and chat about the the privacy implications of things like vaccine passports i know

it's something that you've been vocal about on twitter i've talked some about but hasn't been a huge focus for me but it's definitely something that's uh just becoming more important in my mind um as we've seen these really in in my opinion authoritarian pushes towards a restriction of freedom for those who don't choose to take a vaccine um which is definitely it's a it's a hot topic and it's highly politicized but what is it that makes that topic so important for you today again it comes down to privacy you know it's about what um about yourself about your medical um history about your medical decisions uh be required by force of government to disclose to the government to others just to participate in daily life i mean it sounds crazy that you know if you just say five years from now you're not going to market without you know if you're not going to market without revealing personal medical information to a door checker at the door who's going to verify your personal medical information on your phone or on a card

you'll be required to um and if you don't have this card you're able to enter the supermarket and we said that five years ago uh pandemics uh it would have sounded right but now now again this is a privacy podcast if you're listening to this you respect privacy you value privacy this is a privacy issue this is there is no other kind of issue at hand here other than privacy you know it's a and it's galley it's getting really mishmashed with a lot of different things with you know um with the uh medical aspects with the um you know social aspects um and the same argument is being if you're getting vaccinated that's the same but it's not about the vaccine and it's not about if you're a good person or not it's about do you have the right to keep your medical information private and if you believe so then you're on the side of you would be against a vaccine passport law or regulation that's in violence which means every law is enforced with guns within a cage right it's like if you don't comply with the vaccine passport

laws you will be thrown in a cage we see we're already seeing in australia you know we're seeing in other places that used to a couple years ago were bastions of freedom and now it's a complete disaster so um to me it's a complete issue i think there's human rights issues as well with regard to you know forced uh medical procedures but that might be outside the scope of of this podcast yeah i mean it's it's such a tricky topic because it's so heavily weaponized by politicians by the government by governments across the world and it's been turned into something that's a much more divisive issue than i think it needs to be i really think even whether you're for the covered vaccine against the code vaccine whatever your views are on the actual

30:00 medical data, the actual scientific data, the actual research that's being done, whatever your views are on how well the vaccine works or what it does, people, in my opinion, should be able to come together around the idea that access to the economy, access to a livelihood, access to food, clothing, shelter, all of those things should not be gated by confidential medical information. You should not have to give up a thing that tells someone your personal information and your vaccination status to be able to, like you said, go into a grocery store or to retain a job like we've seen. I mean, we're recording this on the day that New York fired 80,000 healthcare workers.

Many hundreds of healthcare workers got fired near me as well because they either chose not to get vaccinated or chose not to disclose their vaccination status. And that is someone losing their livelihood over, again, private medical information and in particular in a vaccine that's not been shown to prevent spread. So they're not putting other people at risk by not getting vaccinated. So it really becomes a compliance issue and a privacy issue. And it's something that can be really tricky to have good conversations on the privacy aspects. And it's something that I kind of got into a lot of hot water when I was going to DEF CON and trying to get in and they made vaccine passports mandatory, which was a very interesting approach for a supposedly kind of countercultural privacy centric conference.

They also switched to mostly credit card acceptance rather than cash. But their argument was initially to me was, well, you don't have an expectation of privacy in Vegas, so you shouldn't expect privacy when you come to the conference. So they were requiring that, even though that wasn't even a state mandate or a federal mandate in any way at that point. And it was just, to me, it was a sign that people are willing to give up privacy when they feel that it gives them some sort of security. And they're, they're even willing when they're a pro privacy community in general. So it's something that the government knows, and honestly, big tech knows the buttons that they can push to get us to comply in different ways. And if they can find the right buttons to push to get us to comply and give away our privacy, without them having to forcefully remove our privacy, they're going to push those buttons. And vaccine passports can be a very strong button to push because people are fearful of COVID, people are fearful of the vaccines, people are

fearful of the government, and they can use that fear to try to strip away privacy along the way. So whatever your views on the vaccine are, I hope that people can really come together on the idea of vaccine passports being something that when mandating access to the economy and access to a livelihood through a vaccination passport and through giving up that confidential medical information to do all of these things. Hopefully that's something we can come together on the topic of privacy about.

Yeah. I mean, there's really two issues that people are overlooking in a very unfortunate and sometimes hypocritical way. And one is, a lot of what's happening right now are not longer-term consequences in the way it could come back to affect them in the future. You know, if there is a political regime in whatever country they're in that they disagree with, that is prioritizing something that they completely disagree and is demanding that they expose something about themselves that they don't feel like they need to, but the government says they do need to. You know, so this could be flipped around very quickly.

And then the other side of this is the bodily autonomy, you know, part where, for how many decades have my body my choice, right? It's my body, what do it? I can decide what do it. I can decide in certain cases what comes out of it. Not after talk, you know what I mean. So, you know, it's, you know, the same people who are chanting that for decades are now demanding that you put a needle in your arm and you're injected with something that you don't necessarily want in your body.

You know, it opens up this Pandora's box of privacy in your body, like being forced to have a needle push. Like privacy, it doesn't get any deeper than that. So, you know, I think that it's, people are going to figure this out way too late. And we saw the same exact thing. I know I'm way older than you, but on 9/11, 2001, I was in my mid twenties. And so I experienced all that. And I experienced the couple years after that, where everybody was still in this, in this delusional mindset of, you know, we have to kill the terrorists. We have to go after them. We have to do, you know, full national support. We support the government, whatever you got to do, you got to do.

Oh, you're killing civilians. Well, it's in the name of, you know, justice and all that. Patriot Act, everything that went down. I mean, if you look back now and you realize the damage of Patriot, and you think to yourself, how in the world did a country like America let that thing just happen? Mm-hmm . And because there was that sort of mass delusion came with the trauma of, of just having your world shaken, you know, by that event. And, um, the recent pandemic, I wouldn't put it on the same playing field as far as like a one day sort of traumatic event. It was just, it was traumatic over much longer period. And a lot of people are in the state where we just have to do whatever we can do right now, regardless of the costs of future generations, you know, and, uh, it's a sad because it really, really, it's not as much as it's going to hurt the next one to, to five generations, you know, that come along and have to deal with.

Yeah. Yeah. These things have very far reaching consequences. And, and a key thing that you've mentioned already today, and it's just that once you give those things up, once you give up those freedoms, once you allow the government to take a step into your private life and a step into taking away liberties, good luck getting it back. It only gets harder and harder when privacy is undermined. And that's something that I don't think a lot of people think about is that they may hold many different liberties that they have very dearly, but they're not concerned with privacy. And they don't realize that when they have no privacy, there's no way for them to, to deter or push back against a government that wants to tread on those other liberties that they hold so dear. So it's something that that goes hand in hand. So if we're willing to give up that privacy for a specific fear of today, even if that is a legitimate fear, and obviously people have died from COVID, there has been loss.

If we let that fear cloud our judgment and cloud our vision and allow us to, to give up vital pieces of our privacy and vital pieces of our digital and physical life today, we're going to pay the consequences down the road. That's something that a lot of people don't consider, but is really, really important. Right. And we're still not having the right debate in society. You know, the, the debate should be at what point is it to begin to remove people's liberty, remove their privacy, keeping others, like at what level of danger, at what level of risk should every kid to accept? And what level?

So when you choose that level, you're saying, okay, anybody who impedes to lose their liberty and deserves to lose their privacy and deserves to lose their bodily autonomy, uh, decided for us. Okay. That level was decided for us. And it was decided that if you pose any potential risk of spreading, um, this virus, that you deserve to, um, lose your societal privileges, you know, and, but the debate never happened. It was fiat. It was tyranny puts the majority in the, you know, the government and, uh, and their constituents. So, uh, but that's the debate that should be having. And I, I do think that, look, you know, if you enter a wartime situation, if your country is invaded, you know, if you are, um, facing the black death, you know, people are dying in the streets, you know, if you're, um, there's definitely certain situations where their life or death and you would expect to lose some of your, your liberty. Other situations like the one that's currently occurring, where you would not expect it

would reach that level.

40:00 just the science and the statistics and you're seeing, you know, the, the minimal risk that's posed many different bait hasn't happened. We just decided that's the line, you know, and, but that's really where we need to get to. And I do think we're going to get there in the next half a decade, I hope that delusional, delusional phase where it's just, you know, full steam ahead on crushing the enemy, you know, and it's unfortunate we get, we're still taking our, we have no idea why we're doing that.

Yeah. Yeah. I hope that it is not too much longer before we're able to take a good retrospective look and, and see what was done that shouldn't have been done and what wasn't done that should have been done. Hopefully that is something that enough people wake up to and push back on so that we're able to have those, those legitimate uncensored open air discussions where we're able to actually come to a, come to an agreement together as a, as a people, as countries and make those decisions for ourselves. Like you said, let's put it this way though. It's like, if we're still taking off our shoes 20 years later, how long is it going to take until we get out of, um, in vaccine cards or a way of life?

You know, it's like, that's what worries me. It's like, once the government starts down that path, we don't have a good track record. Actually, I don't believe there's any precedent in world history for government willingly giving up, uh, power that it's grabbed, you know? So yeah, we, we, I mean, this is why, again, to bring it back, like the privacy tech that's being built, um, whether it's blockchain based or, or not, you know, these other open source projects that are out there that, you know, like Hallux and, and, you know, um, privacy you can get by switching off from Mac and windows into Linux and stuff like that. This is the forward, you know, and coin, for instance, um, if the government had figured out Bitcoin sooner and saw it was coming, they would have found a way to shut it down. They couldn't because by the time they figured it out, it was way too big. It was a global economy. It's everywhere. You can't stop it. And as soon as they realized they couldn't stop it, then they embraced it. You know, they tried to figure out, okay, how can we work with this instead

of trying to, to crush it? And that's where privacy tech needs to get to, right? It needs to get to the point where it's just too big to be stopped, too big to fail. Um, and, uh, that's the only way to sort of reverse, I think what we're seeing right now. Let's take a quick break from this episode to chat about the sponsors of opt out Cake Wallet and LocalMonero Cake Wallet is a key tool that I use daily as it allows me to easily and quickly use Monero for private by default payments. It's available in both iOS and Android. It is a fantastic way to get started buying and using Monero with a simple and easy to understand user experience. I regularly onboard new users to Cake Wallet and hope that it will help simplify and ease your journey into cryptocurrency. If you're interested in purchasing Monero for the first time, or helping to bring others into a parallel economy, I'd recommend you look at using LocalMonero like I do to buy and sell Monero while maintaining your privacy and avoiding

invasive exchange surveillance. LocalMonero is entirely peer to peer and is an important part of opting out of the surveillance state and into a parallel economy. Thank you to both sponsors for their incredible support and partnership. And I hope you'll take a moment after the episode to learn more in the show notes or at optoutpod.com/sponsors. Yes, I know you've been taking a lot of those steps yourself and you mentioned Linux right there. I'm curious, I know you've been trying to switch to Linux as a daily driver. What was it that made you finally make the switch? And then what have been kind of the bright spots and the pain points of you?

Because that's something we talked about a good bit on opt out. That's something that I've done over the past, I guess, couple of years switched to Linux first, Debian and now pop OS as my daily drivers. But it can be something that can be very daunting for people. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on why you made the jump, but then what have been the pros and the cons for you so far? Well, after I heard your episode with Henry and then the Apple C-S-A-M boondoggle happened.

Yeah. You know, that was really a trigger point for me and realizing, okay, I'm sort of hesitant to believe Apple's promises that they were making, you know, and saw it as just heavy marketing. You see billboards everywhere with privacy, privacy, privacy. And the next thing you know, they're saying they're going to scan all your photos and review them with humans if needed. You know, it's like, what an unbelievable about face. And I know they never went through with it. They postponed it.

They say that they're going to work harder on preserving privacy when they do it. But that was really a trigger point for me and realizing between that and like when I heard about that tech, I mean, obviously everybody wants to protect children, right? But this is happening at the same time as is calling people who disagree with it on any level about things that it's doing. It's calling them domestic terrorists at this point, just for, you know, sort of, you got people like AOC and them like saying, you know, if you, if you disagree with this or that, you're, you're basically a terrorist, you know, and looking, trying to make lists of people who they think are dangerous to society and things like that.

And it includes, you look at some of the, the documents that are floating around DC. Libertarians are literally now on a list of potential problem groups for national security, which is insane when you think about it. But it's like, how long is it going to be before big tech is, is sort of scanning for, you know, information or pictures or notes or text mess, uh, sort of fit that bill, you know, and you might never know it and they might never tell us they're doing it.

But next thing you know, there's a list being created, you know, and there's really no reason at this point to think that's not going to happen. You know, we've seen already big tech buy into, um, sort of shutting down any conversation about vaccines and about, um, the virus and things like that, you know, to the point where, you know, fully credentialed scientists and doctors that have, that are just completely eliminated from, from YouTube and Twitter, just because they, they said something that didn't line up with the government.

So why wouldn't the government, I mean, why wouldn't the big tech agree to, uh, to monitor for certain types of things? So when I started thinking about that and then CSAM happened and everything, I said, you know what, it's time to, to take a step out of this, given up too much of my privacy in exchange for convenience. And that's really what it boils down to. It's you live in that Apple world. And I was probably there for, um, you know, a good, uh, what, I think I got an iPhone in 2009.

And then after that, so, you know, 12 years and 12 years in that ecosystem is like, you get very comfortable, you know, I don't know if you're a Mac guy or have been in the past, but. Off and on, but not, not regularly through the years. Okay. Into that ecosystem. And you're just in, you know, you got the iPad, you got the, you know, and it's like, you get too used to things being really, really easy. And that's their objective, right. Is to keep you in the ecosystem and, and sort of lock you in mentally.

And, um, you know, in doing that, you re you don't realize at first, but eventually you realize you're giving up so much information to one company, you know, and you, you then CSAM happens and you're like, wow, this is a huge liability. Um, and it's actually could cost you everything. If you, if things go the wrong way. You know, so that was really the spark that I needed to work and, uh, and then ditch Mac OS, which was more recent for me. Um, and didn't try to, you know, sort of embrace a quirkiness of, of been easy.

I actually, what I DM to you a week or two ago and said, I don't know if I can do this, man. Like, you know, things aren't working. Like, you know, I'm so used to my Mac just working. Uh, but since then I, I do have good news in that, um, I figured a bunch of things out and I, I'm, I'm on my Linux computer right now talking to you. Nice. Yeah. Things are going pretty well. Yeah, definitely. It is not, it's not always an easy thing. Uh, and there's a lot of, especially when you're in a walled ecosystem like that.

I mean, like walled gardens are Apple's specialty. There's similar, similar things in like the Android space and kind of in windows, but not, they don't have as much of a monopoly on that. But when you're in a walled garden like that, it is very intentionally very difficult to escape, like you mentioned. So just making.

50:00 that conscious effort to start exploring outside that wall garden is such an important step forward and i'm glad that you've been able to to make some strides into making it work for you but i mean that's one of the reasons why i wanted to talk about it because i don't want people to get the idea that everything that they do every step they take on their privacy journey is going to be an easy thing or it's going to be like oh yeah i just switched it was no big deal that's not really how it is for a lot of people so i think it's good to hear the the pros and the cons that people have when they're taking these steps so that you can understand what you're getting into be aware of the things that you need to learn about maybe a linux distribution that's better for you or worse for you and um that's one of the reasons why i did really want to chat about that i'm curious what linux distribution you you settled on if you don't mind sharing i settled on zoran uh zoran switch um i tried a bunch and for some reason this one just clicked with me i i'm not sure if it has to do with

the desk i seem to work nicely with with the laptop i got and so i've been sticking with for now nice yeah i've heard that it's a pretty pretty user-friendly one the one that i've settled on for now and that i recommend to a lot of people is is pop os which is made by system 76 who also have their own line of laptops desktops uh lots different linux first hardware um but i think that's a really it's the beauty and the curse i guess of the linux ecosystem is that there is a distro out there for everyone but that that means that every distro is not for everyone so you have to kind of find the the thing that fits you best and a lot of times that just boils down to the desktop environment whether that's something like gnome or kde or the different experiences that there are around that but a lot of it can just come down to how well packaged a system is like pop os i really enjoy it's it's really easy to get the apps you need they work really well they have a really good tiling system for multitasking there's a lot of stuff bundled there that fits my needs really well but

that doesn't mean it'll fit everyone's yeah yeah it was funny because when i started on this journey um i was thinking to myself well if i'm gonna do this i i gotta go all the way so i was thinking i'm gonna just start with Qubes you know and Qubes OS for those that don't know it's like a mega privacy um linux distro um for from other ones where you're running multiple virtual machines to keep your data separate and privacy um oriented um but it's also if you're not well versed with linux you're you know with command line and with just you know hacking your computer in general um it's kind of wild what i realized was i i think a lot of people probably fail for that reason in that they try to just make too big of a jump right away you know and i i sort of because i've aimed to move to a linux distro that looked just like mac you know or look just like windows like i was like oh that's just a cop out like what am i doing i gotta go full bore uh so i started watching like command line videos and i was

like i'm gonna do this because you know i i know some to uh Qubes so certain point you got to the baby steps you know it's like um it's a big enough jump from mac to something like zork exactly like look easy to use you're you're getting that your feet out of that ecosystem and just that jump alone has been way hard to be as far as like getting you know everything sort of also escaping i mean escaping um i mean i'm ashamed to say i was using icloud you know and escaping icloud my photos my documents my notes my reminders my calendar my everything you know just sort of you know it's easy to get like something like Nextcloud set up and get that getting everything out i still don't have everything out of icloud i'm still trying to figure out how to get like 50 gigs of like data out you know it's like nobody up and it's like they don't make it easy um but my who's thinking about doing this is expect it to be it's not an overnight thing for me it is literally um it's it's taking it's a months long

process it is it's you know just figuring out the right hardware the right linux distro um migrating all that data over you know just getting yourself to the point where you're up and feeling sufficient it's a couple months and i think it's important not to rush it because i think that's if you rush it and then you fail i think that um that's where you just almost did you know i almost gave off a couple weeks ago i was like i'm going back to mac forget this this is not worth it but then i realized it really if i go back i'm back there again with the same problems the same privacy issues and it's even worse now because i've had a failure and i feel like it'll take me another couple years to to get the balls to try it again so i was like i gotta keep pushing at this i gotta just see if i can make it happen and it's happening now i'm feeling better and uh i i think probably in another couple weeks i'll be able to to completely ditch my macbook and uh feel good about things that's yeah it's

awesome to hear that you've been able to push through the difficulties there and just get over that initial hurdle i mean i think you you hit on a few really good points there the first being don't feel like you have to go like cold turkey all in hardcore cli only linux like you you don't need to go all the way necessarily i mean maybe you have a threat model where mac os and normal distros are just not a possibility you need to jump to something straight and like Qubes like that could be something that's a valid approach for you but for most people that's not the thing at hand they need to take it slow figure out a distribution that works for you figure out the the tools that you can migrate to and and just really start to get your feet wet start to get familiar and um for a lot of people if you can keep both at first like you're switching from from mac os to linux unless you have to go cold turkey i recommend most people slowly transition realize what are the tools that i absolutely have to have

from my mac onto linux and how can i find a hopefully false alternative on linux or a way to run that in a web browser instead of an application something like that and just slowly make that transition and that's that's the second kind of key point out of there is transitioning from like ios to CalyxOS or mac os to linux a lot of the complexity is not necessarily what the like day-to-day desktop environment is a lot of the complexity is the services that you've been kind of sold and and settled into and used to in a walled garden like apple's ecosystem in particular those things are not something you can just start using on a linux machine or start using a CalyxOS they're they're things you have to find alternatives for and hopefully you're able to find false alternatives but that transition of not only the actual operating system you're using but all of the tools and services that you're used to on your original operating system that can take a really long time and and it's it's important that people

realize like it can take a while but it is absolutely worth it and there are many people who've gone through the same transition who will hopefully be more than willing to help you go through the transition as well and so that's that's one of the reasons why i drive the need for community home so much on opt out is if you have that group of people around you who have been through that who understand how hard it is who understand different tools on both sides of the the walled gardens and can help you do that transition it's going to be a lot easier because you can have those people you can reach out to and say hey like i'm really struggling i don't know if i can do this and they can kind of help guide you through or or give you tips and tricks or just maybe give you some motivation to keep pushing through so community is is vital and making a switch like that yeah and the my resources have have really been you and uh Techlore and a bunch of real mix distros and stuff like that um it's all out there like there's

great information out there but at the end of the day you don't really know what you're in yeah to do it yourself you know it's like um you can get some guidance but you have to you have to just jump in and and do it and then as you go i mean i was i tried probably distros before i settled on this one um at the same time as i was also transitioning mobile which is a whole different beast ios to CalyxOS uh and figuring out the hardware you know getting your hands on a pixel and then um you know installing and and then figuring out apps and figuring out and stuff like that um so so much involved and it's so personal on so many levels you know i think everybody has like for me one of the biggest my biggest issue still is figuring out um reminders believe it or not like on the iphone i just was a massive big list ask reminders and recurring reminders and it's it's probably my biggest headache from moving to to

1:00:00 Calyx is like figuring out how to replicate that. And now I've gotten to a pretty good place with using, syncing it with my laptop and, you know, it's still not as smooth as iOS obviously, but it's funny how you discover the things you're most reliant on. You don't even really realize with Apple because you're so brainwashed. Everything's just so easy. But again, don't kid yourself. It is a trade-off. You know, you've traded your privacy for convenience.

So when you make this switch out to, you know, a FOSS mobile operating system or to Linux, you are reversing that. You are giving up for your privacy back. And it's a trade-off that can go either direction, but don't kid yourself. It's not going to be as easy and seamless as you get with those centralized services that require you to give up your privacy and therefore your liberty. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree. It's definitely, it's a game of trade-offs, but usually giving up a little convenience for much greater privacy is a good trade-off to make.

And once you spend time using those new tools, using things like Nextcloud, you get more comfortable with the approaches that they've taken to user experience, to sync, to all of those things. And it becomes more convenient over time too. So definitely don't want people to think that the inconvenience they face right when they get into using Linux or CalyxOS or something like that will always be the situation because you'll learn tools that fit your specific needs and you'll learn how to use those tools better and better over time.

So it's definitely something that does improve, but definitely don't expect it to be as seamless as when it's a completely closed walled garden ecosystem because you just can't, you simply can't make a free open source set of tools that cohesive when they're created by different people for different purposes with different goals in mind, all of that kind of thing. Right. Not yet. Who knows what the future may hold, right? I mean, I have high hopes for open source.

It's getting better and better. Yeah, it is. Yeah, I mean, I was shocked when I used these new Linux distros and like Zorin 16 and like the way it looks and the way it's just, it's very smooth and very easy to use. And I've had very, very few problems with it. And I was really surprised because last time I used Linux was, I mean, probably 10 years ago and it was nothing like this, you know? So it's great to see. And, you know, with CalyxOS and other open source stuff on mobile, you know, it's the same thing.

It's like you have these beautiful operating systems now where you would never expect this level of, and a lot of it has to do with the hardware that's available and stuff like that now too. But in another 10 years, who knows where we're going to be? You know, we could really figure out a way to replicate that sort of, not a walled garden, of course, but a seamless, you know, we're seeing it somewhat now, I realize with Linux and with Snaps and with Flatpaks and stuff, where there's starting to be this, and I know it's a controversial topic a little bit, but we're starting to see this streamlined way of operating, but still in an open source manner, you know?

And I think that that's really a big step towards making it easier for end users to sort of exist in this world, you know, and not having to rely on closed source, centralized systems just for that level of convenience. So it's going to be really big, so... Yeah, yeah. And the beauty of these tools is the more people we pull into them, the more funding they get through donations, through grants, through other ways of funding open source projects, the more feedback that we give them and the people we pull into them give them, the more code that people jump in and decide to commit, because again, most of this stuff is free and open source, so anyone can contribute code.

The bigger we grow this ecosystem and these communities, the better these tools are going to get. So it can be even a completely selfish thing. If you just want the tool to be better for yourself, you can pull people into using it, and you can pull people in to fund it, and all of those kinds of things, knowing that it'll make it better for you. And that's fine, because it's going to improve these tools that are very, very important, and they are really improving rapidly, and it's something that I've been really glad to see, because I've kind of jumped deeper and deeper and deeper into privacy tools for sure.

I'm curious, I want to learn a little bit more about your transition to CalyxOS 2, because I know you said that's been a little bit easier, but it's been going on for a while. I'm curious, was the final nudge to switch to that also the CSAM stuff by Apple, and then kind of how has that process been for you overall? Yeah, well, that was the initial push, yeah, and that's why I also decided, the decision to move to Linux was as a result of that. So the transition, yeah, I would say that one's been just as long, probably a little longer than the Linux transition, probably because I'm going to have to first discover Calyx, which I thankfully did from you guys.

Then you need to sort of get to the point where you just understand how it works. How can you have Android without Google? It's like, I didn't even, I mean, I didn't know the full history of Android, to be honest with you, before. I was like, why would I want to go back and just use more of Android? And why would I want to put it on a Google phone? It's like, I've said so many questions at first. That one gets so many people. Yeah, and it still gets me.

I still have like 1% skepticism about the whole thing. But, yeah, then you got a source of phone, right? And if you do it right, you're not tying your identity to it. You're not ordering it from Google. You know, you're trying to find a pixel that you can, so you got that step. Then you've got to figure out your mobile carrier. You know, so you need to make changes there. And if you've been with one mobile carrier for a long time and you never use prepaid, you need to sort of learn how that all works.

I mean, there's so many steps. You need to get your phone. You need to get your new, do this that way. And after that, only after all of that, which could easily take two to four weeks by itself, then you can start to set up your phone. You know, then you can start to figure out how open source, uh, the servers work, Aurora and after, and what, and then Nextcloud is a whole other project. It took me forever to, with that, you know, at first night, because I'm a digital nomad, I just couldn't do it.

I was trying to use like a raspberry pie and just hook it up wherever I, uh, went, but it just wasn't working out for me. So right now I'm using a hosted solution for Nextcloud, but I, I'm fully committed to, um, whenever I stop being a nomad to sell, but to see, and I don't know if one exists, but I think we really need, maybe I should do it, build like a, a full on user manual, just from, from zero to Calyx, you know, just, uh, um, cause I, I couldn't find one place to get all the information, but it is all out there.

If you, if you look hard enough, there's a lot of good info out there, especially on the Calyx forums. I found a lot of good information. Yeah. I mean, the, the more educational content, the better. So that's, that's something you could put together. It'd definitely be a, a net win. There have been some good resources that I've shared that I'll make sure to, to link as well. Um, there's been a few previous guests and other blogs that I put together bits and pieces of that.

But like you said, it can be hard to piece together really the, the whole journey, especially depending on how deep you go into using like prepaid some with cash, buying a phone third party and without KYC or without identity tied to it in any way. Um, like definitely can add a lot of complexity that, that a lot of guides won't cover. So definitely would be, be good to get that. if that's something you'd be interested in putting together or even just your thoughts on the experience is, is always helpful to have, have more people's journeys visible.

So people can kind of see like, okay, this was, this was this guy's approach. This is what he went about. These are the tips he had. And it's, it's super, super helpful. Um, if nothing else, but to, to share your story. So that'd be great to see if you have time for that. I should do that. There's a lot of nuance to that. I didn't even realize until I was in the midst of it. Like for instance, I decided, okay, I'm going to, you know, get a prepaid SIM, use a new phone number.

Um, but then I realized, you know, there's value in not giving this phone number out to companies. You still need a phone number to give to your bank and to, you know, um, places that you, uh, order from, um, in a lot of cases. So, um, you know, I realized, Oh, if I keep my old phone number, I can port that over to, a cheap flip phone or something and, uh, get a $5 a month, uh, prepaid plan with minimal minutes and stuff, you know, and like stuff like that, like little things that occurred to me along the way that I'm finding were really good decisions because now I don't need to give my personal number out to any, you know, and, uh, because as we all know, uh, shopping is a real thing and, uh, you know, attacks using your phone number are a real thing.

And, uh, the more flexibility you can keep for yourself, the better, you know? So, uh, um, but yeah, I think that you're right in that sharing those stories could be really valuable for

1:10:00 people. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, and is there, I know you covered a good bit of things in that section, but was there any, any other specific advice you'd give for someone who's wanting to transition to something like CalX OS? It's similar to the Linux. I would say you need to, um, you know, especially like with me, it was, I was hitting every road, even including family. I got my whole family over the last Apple ecosystem. So we could all FaceTime and iMessage and stuff like that.

And so all of a sudden I'm jerk, you know, in Android, nobody can FaceTime message me, um, get, I'll signal. Like, you know, it's like, you just have to read that, um, not everybody's going to understand the moves you're making, but you know, you're gonna, like, I've decided I'm still going to do an Apple device around just for FaceTiming with my sister and her kids and stuff like that, that to keep your personal relationships going, but you can still come off when you're not using them, put them away. Um, you're not going to use them for anything other than that purpose. Uh, no, I would say be patient. Don't be all or nothing, you know, because this can be gradual this long using, um, these horrible surveillance. So if you just start to phase it out now, you're, you're much better off than 99.9% of the people out there anyway. And, uh, that's for a switch to Calyx is that be patient with yourself and with your, your situation.

Yeah. Yeah. Really good advice. It's, it's important that people start that journey, get, get rolling. You'll, you'll get there, but definitely take it, take it one step at a time. Right. Um, is there, are there any other tools that you use regularly to opt out that you'd recommend others take a look at and then why? So I learned about, um, it was.com from one of your podcasts, I think. I think I was like, oh, see that, that yeah. Yeah. Techlore is great.

Um, so I've been using that. Uh, I've been, you know, sort of, I've been for the past, a long time, a heavy credit card user, um, not for debt purposes, but for, um, the old art of churning, I would say like just earning points and like, you know, bonus. I opened every credit card possible, you know, and, uh, before I started to realize the privacy implications and I'm only starting to realize the privacy implications of, of credit cards and, you know, um, the surveillance that can happen with your bank to know everything about you, you know, and not to mention the places you order from and places like that. But I mean, your credit card, sure. Has a shop.

They know, you know, where you're buying your, uh, condoms. They know, it's like, they know way too much. So, uh, so, um, it's like, um, easing out of that is a goal of mine. And I found that privacy.com, which lets you have these disposable, um, credit cards and your bank never sees what's going on. They never see the transactions cause you can mask them. Um, is a valuable tool. You still trust privacy.com or separate right around yet because they can see everything, but, um, it's better. I'd rather put my trust in them, you know, Wells Fargo government subpoena, all credit card records for anybody who's ever vaccines. So, uh, so then using, uh, you know, as far as email goes, um, I did look at, uh, I think it was called SimpleLogin that you guys.

Yeah. I made the switch after episode one. Um, super helpful. Yeah. I, uh, for a couple of years and domain and using a catch all address. So, um, I already had a pretty good system going with email and I have it, so I haven't made any big changes with that yet, but, um, I do suggest one of those two methods for everybody either, which might be the easier, faster way to, to, to achieve some sort of email privacy, um, or do what I did and set up your own domain.

Um, you can use proton mail or any other, um, you know, there's a lot of, some of you privacy up as a catch all address, which means your domain, setting up for Amazon. You can make it calm, you know, it's Facebook. Uh, but, uh, that's been really helpful for me and, uh, seeing which ones are being sold to mailing lists. I've two smaller companies that all have for one company. And then a year later, I'm getting just loads of spam, right from on that address. And I can see exactly who I gave that address to. So, um, that's been really helpful for me and identifying who I can't trust out there and, uh, letting others know about it too. So, um, that I try to, um, take care of my privacy.

Yeah. And I think, I think you brought up a really good point that like privacy.com, you still have to trust them with your data, but a lot of these things where there's not a trustless alternative, like if you need to use a credit card, there's not a trustless credit card you can use where you're not giving that data to someone, at least not that I know of. So if you're going to give that data to someone, it's important that you choose wisely who is getting that data. And so it, yes, you're trusting that data to like privacy.com, but they also have a very good reputation. They've handled data well so far. Like there's, there's a lot to, there's a lot to say about when something cannot be trustless, having options to decide who you trust with that data is really important. And trusting company like privacy.com is like you mentioned, generally going to be a lot better than trusting your general generic bank. Um, but everyone needs to decide like what fits their specific threat model and approach

individually for sure. Until we're kind of stuck with, you know, credit cards and debit cards for online ordering slowly, but surely we'll get there. Well, last question I have for you, man, is what advice would you give to someone who's just starting to realize the need for personal privacy? I would say, uh, Snowden's book, which excellent, um, sort of expos, starting to realize the need for it. Then that after you read that you'll, you'll be in panic mode, like you'll, you'll realize what you're dealing with, you know, as far as big tech and digital surveillance and things like that.

That was what did it for me. That's called, that's called permanent record by Edwards, right. For anyone who's not aware. Yeah. I mean, I think just consuming that knowledge that's already out there. Um, you know, making sure you're sticking to reputable sources or as reputable as you can find. Um, I think this is a great way to, to stay tuned to, to that kind of stuff and to the more that you consume and the more that you realize the threats that you face. Um, the quicker you're gonna decide to take some sort of action, you know, and I think that again, it's like, it could pull, they might wait. Okay. It depends where you're at. Like this has been building for me for, um, since I would say since nine 11, you know, like where I, I mean, I realized when, you know, Patriot act was first, first being talked about, it doesn't seem right. Like, you know, we're giving up what, you know, it's like, it just, I realized like, wow, like we're overreacting, you know? And like, then 20 years later, I finally decide to take action. So it's like, I mean, there was a lot of steps with up and things

like that. But, um, you know, just, um, go on your own timeline. You know, the you're, um, everybody's a unique person who has different needs and different wants to get different things out of life. And, uh, if you feel passionate about this, then jump in with both feet. But if you feel like information before you take action, then, but at the end of the day, um, like we said in the beginning, um, I think what you realize, especially after reading Snowden's book is every day that you wait is another day of data that's being collected on you, you know? And if you don't take,

1:20:00 signs you're just continuing to sort of feed the beast you know and uh but that becomes apparent the more that you you learn and you get info from from good sources and realize the perspective that's shared by the mainstream especially is generally incorrect when it comes to liberty perspective yeah definitely unfortunately true but i'm thankful that there are so many good resources out there like you mentioned Techlore has been a huge one for me and definitely recommend people look at the work that they've done um but there there are lots of great resources out there hopefully a lot of the episodes of this podcast will will be that resource for people or point people in the right direction but there is a lot out there if you if you choose to look and dig you're gonna find find great stuff out there and if you along the way find a gap fill it in hopefully people will come out with their own content come out their own blog posts their own videos their own podcast to to help fill in those gaps but um thank you so much for coming on chris it was a great

chance to get to chat and i'm glad we were able to to finally talk directly and then just to cover some really important topics here today um i know i didn't get a ton into cryptocurrencies but i do want to have you back on in the future and we'll we'll chat a little bit more about that for sure and chat about more of your work in defy d5 gosh i'm never gonna say it correctly i don't even know if i'm saying it right i've been told it's thanks for inviting me it's d5 it's the most common pronunciation but thanks for for having me and it's cool episodes that sort of inspired me to take action yeah it's out of the the work yeah it's awesome to hear the the journey that you've been going through and i love that listeners will get to see kind of a glimpse into to what it looks like to to realize that need and and jump into those those steps to to take back your privacy um for listeners who want to to read more about what you do or communicate with you what's the best way to to keep up with you or reach out on twitter first and foremost at chris

h-r-i-s-b-l-e-c and uh um defi watch.net is where i share information about defy as it comes up and i also have a podcast proof of decentralization that you can find out there in the world but twitter is where i put all that stuff first awesome well thanks so much again for coming on chris it's been a pleasure all right thanks seth thanks for listening and i hope you enjoyed this episode of opt out if you did please take a moment and subscribe to the podcast or if you're already subscribed share it with one friend or family member this week as always you can check out the links to our guest content and contact info as well as links to all of the tools we discussed in today's episode in the show notes or at optoutpod.com now get out there and opt out this week this week's project to help you opt out is ted it a privacy preserving front end for reddit that's free and open source ted it allows you to browse reddit and follow subreddits and users via rss all while avoiding javascript ads and direct connections to reddit servers it's a default i try to use when sharing reddit links

and i recommend you try it out by using my self-hosted public instance at ted it.sethforprivacy.com you can also use the browser plug-in privacy redirect to automatically redirect any reddit links to a random or specified ted it instance