00:00 Hello, I'm Seth For Privacy, and welcome to a special episode of Opt Out. Opt Out's a show where I sit down with passionate people to learn why privacy matters to them, the tools and techniques they found and leveraged, and where we encourage and inspire others towards personal privacy and data sovereignty. This episode, we're going to take a break from the normal structure of Opt Out to focus on a conference that I'll be attending and speaking at in April, Bear Arms and Bitcoin, and learn more about it from the creator, Ragnar.

Welcome on to Opt Out, Ragnar. Thanks, Seth, for having me on. I appreciate it, and thank you for speaking at the conference. Yeah, I am super thrilled to finally be attending this year to be coming to Bear Arms and Bitcoin. That's been my plan since hearing all the good feedback from last year, but was obviously psyched that you reached out and wanted to introduce Monero to the audience there, and just give me a chance to speak is definitely an honor, and I'm looking forward to getting to do that.

And just really, from what I can tell, it's a conference that's driven by cypherpunk ideals and just really freedom-loving people from all walks of life. So I think it's a very important piece of the ecosystem. I'm building a really solid community around those aspects of something I can really get behind. So I'm excited to join this year. But for those who aren't familiar with you or with Bear Arms and Bitcoin, do you mind just introducing yourself and telling us a little bit about what it is?

Sure. So I'm Ragnar Lee Thracer, and guns and Bitcoin started out in 2018, and it really started out as just an idea. And, you know, for me, I've always kind of thought in two worlds, one of the physical world and the digital world. And to me, guns and Bitcoin always just came together in my personal life. Like what I do with my free time, I would shoot guns. I would obviously play around with Bitcoin and work in Bitcoin. I've had a startup or two and nonprofit in Bitcoin.

So to me, they were always just part of my life. And I just thought, you know, I like that. I just like the name guns and Bitcoin, kind of from Guns and Roses. And then I made myself this case. I took basically like a pistol gun case, and I made some custom foam where I also put some hardware while it's in there. And I'm like, hmm, I wonder if anyone else would want this. So we created our first product, not like on purpose. It's just something I made and put it out there.

And we ended up selling out. It's called the Scorpion case. So that's how guns and Bitcoin started out was an idea and then a product. And then now we're coming on to our third, going to be our third annual conference here in April. Yeah, it's pretty crazy how these things just kind of seem to just materialize out of a passion for specific things. Like you mentioned, you had a passion for guns and for Bitcoin, and it kind of morphed into an annual conference.

Something that I know you didn't have planned at the beginning. But it's cool to see how those things that we're passionate about can really morph into things that we never really expected. And I want to dive a little bit more into the conference itself. But before that, I'd love to just kind of step back and get to know a little bit more about you and just really kind of go over a question that I like to talk about with every guest. But just hear what it was that woke you up to the need for personal privacy.

Well, there's been a few catalysts, I would say, to my lifestyle focusing on privacy and autonomy. I think I've always been oriented around that. I was one of those people born, you know, kind of that way with that orientation. But one big catalyst was I had a friend who basically it's a long story, but his house kind of got raided by police. They entered without a warrant. They took his laptop, downloaded a copy of everything, took a photo of his iris, put him in the cop car for an hour or two.

Never really explained why or what happened. And that was sort of it. And he was ended up being under surveillance for a while. And he never did anything wrong, never broke any laws. He was just somehow associated with whatever it was they thought he was associated with. I think probably kind of a libertarian type of persuasion knowing him. But that really opened my eyes to, wow, like there's some bad actors out there and they could really get you if you're not kind of paying attention to what you're doing.

So that was probably the biggest catalyst. Yeah, that would be a wake up call, especially it not being something that like, you know, you're doing illegal. Just to see a friend kind of undergo that type of surveillance and I don't know, sounds like an attack or persecution by the police for whatever was going on there. Definitely something that would wake you up to starting to care more deeply about privacy. And obviously, you've made it clear already how focused on freedom and autonomy you are.

So really, the combination of those things is something we've talked about on the podcast, but just how privacy really enables you to have autonomy, to have self-sovereignty and to build on those things. So definitely an important piece of that. Yeah, absolutely. I would say that the second catalyst was many years ago in a previous lifetime. It feels like I had a small construction company and I did all of my billing and invoicing through PayPal.

And that's how I paid my subcontractors. And one day, PayPal closed down my account and they wouldn't give me a reason. They said if I wanted to find out, basically, I would have to get a court order to do so. And it really damaged my business because, I mean, I didn't accept credit cards. You don't take checks, obviously, in construction work. Can't really do cash because it's large amounts of cash. And it left me in kind of a bad spot. This was, I think, 2013.

And I had gotten into Bitcoin around 2011. And so that was sort of another event where I thought, shoot, I'm kind of left kind of vulnerable here. And it's not good. And so that's probably what catalyzed me on the Bitcoin front, I think, was seeing the need for that and what can really happen. So, you know, I think those two things in my life have been real events. So, like, this isn't all philosophical for me. It's stuff that I've lived. And so I feel passionate about it.

Yeah, it's definitely something where, like, I feel very privileged and lucky that I haven't kind of run into the real world need for these philosophical ideas and this ethos that I live by. But it's always fascinating to hear from people who have run into those things that I talk about and people around me talk about all the time. The reason why we need tools like Bitcoin, why we need tools like guns to protect ourselves from both bad actors and from governmental oppression.

And there's a lot of pieces there that it's helpful for people to hear real world stories. And it become more than just a philosophical idea and kind of get into the nitty gritty there. So thank you for being willing to share a little bit of the background on where you're coming from there. And I'd love to circle back into bare arms and Bitcoin, which obviously combines those those two things and hear a little bit more about what it is that took you from creating this gun case and starting off guns in Bitcoin, the shop.

And turning that into an annual conference. Like, what was the process there that prompted the creation of the conference itself? Well, the conference itself, again, was something that I didn't kind of do on purpose. It just sort of happened because we had our first conference in 2020. And basically, it happened because I didn't find a conference that I really love. Like, there was, you know, there was a couple that were they were OK, but they just didn't like match what I wanted to hear.

Like the speakers I wanted to see weren't there and the topics really weren't there. And so I'm like, well, let's let's just put on a conference. I'm kind of that way. I'm like, well, if I want something, I'll just do it myself. So we did. We I decided, well, who would I want to hear talk? That's that's how I built the conference was who would I want to see and what topics would I want to hear? And how do I want it and where do I want it? And that's just what I did.

Just put it together and had no idea if we'd even anyone would even show up. But we did OK in 2020. It was our first year. And that was right when COVID hit. Like we were supposed to do it in May of 2020. And obviously, that's that's right when COVID hit. It was kind of spring of 2020. And so we had to move it to Austin. And then we had to move it to the fall. And but people showed up. It was it was great. It was really small, but people were really passionate about it.

There's a lot of great energy. And so it kind of it was kind of validated my instinct, which was, hey, there's other people out there like me. And there's an audience for this stuff. And it does really feel like when these conferences get too big, they really lose a lot of the a lot of the focus of why they were started. And they start to just kind of become these. I don't know. They just get a little crazy. I think like Defcon is an example of that, where it's it's lost a lot of touch with the hacker culture that was at the base of Defcon when it started.

But now that's this massive thing. It's just kind of gotten off the rails. So starting up your own very focused, smaller conference, I think really opens up the door to keeping a lot closer to your ideals and obviously the people who have attended the past couple of years. But do you mind going into a little bit about what the focus of Barams and Bitcoin is? Sure. So broadly, it's freedom technology. So that's DIY guns. That's the cypherpunk usage of Bitcoin.

And then we touch on a couple other things, such as Monero. So in terms of like the DIY guns, that's mostly 3D printed guns. But there's some other DIY technologies around there, like ECM, rifling a barrel, different things around magazines. We might touch on homemade ammo, but that's what we're going to see about that. In terms of Bitcoin, you know, we focus more on usage, on transactions, not so much on hodling. Of course, that's fine. But we're focusing on CoinJoin, you know, Samourai Wallet, they're a sponsor and they're a speaker, too.

General privacy practices. Yeah.

10:00 Bitcoin mining at home. Dave Verge is going to talk about, you know, kind of privacy broadly and using different tools. So it's sort of like, if you think of the sovereign individual, like that book and that idea, like these are the tools a sovereign individual would use in their financial life. That's how we think of it. And we see Monero as another tool. Like we see it as tools. We're not, this isn't a religious Bitcoin conference where we're like, Bitcoin is the one true coin, you know, that we must worship and obey. And you can't, you can't commit sins and sully yourself with the sins of other technologies. It's like, no, like cypherpunks view things as tools and as a means to an end. And so everything we do at the conference is focused on being, you know, practical too. I don't, I don't have a lot of talks that are kind of political and theoretical. It's actually a non-political conference. It's really like the goal is so that when people come to the event and then go home, they'll have new skills and they'll have tangible knowledge and practical skills that they

can go home and actually use. And so that's really our focus is practical things and real world skills. And that is, that's absolutely what drew me to the conference is that it's not just these heady ideas or these deeply technical, like PhD level talks, which have their place and can be really useful. But the focus really seems to be like you mentioned, very approachable, very practical things where I'm going to, I'm going to go home and I'm going to have a better understanding of how to actually use Bitcoin. Like you said, not just toddle it, not just throw it in a wallet and sit on it for a decade, but how I'm actually going to approach using Bitcoin as a tool, as freedom money. And then obviously, like you mentioned, this year starting to also feature some, some talks on Monero and how that can be another tool that fits into the toolkit, how it can pair with Bitcoin, how it can be really just another, another asset there. Another thing that people can actually use to opt out of, of broken systems of surveillance of oppression. So

I'm really excited for that really practical approach. And I think that's something that sets apart bear arms in Bitcoin from the other conferences in the space, especially in the cryptocurrency space, because there's not many that are really focused on the practical use cases and not just price speculation and number go up and all of the other stuff that, that the bigger conferences usually get caught up in. Yeah. And, and yeah, you know that, and I appreciate your words. And besides like these topics in the, in the speakers we have, it's also, we're trying to get a certain kind of crowd for the attendees. And, and we do that by trying to keep the prices pretty low. We do that. Like we have exhibitor tables for hobbyists. So obviously we have exhibitor tables for, you know, companies and organizations, but for, for 25 bucks, you can, if you have something like your hobby, whether it's a DIY gun, or it's some sort of, you know, know that you're creating or whatever it is that you might be, we,

we have those for people because, you know, this is focused on DIY for a lot of it. And so we want people who are doing something to show, you know, what they're doing and to have a place because that's, that's really the heart of decentralization, whether it's, it's in firearms or it's in guns, are these tinkerers who are innovating, you know, in, in their, in their garage or, or basement kind of thing. So that's, that's the other aspect or the attendees. Um, and, and so I think between the type of attendees that we kind of attract and then the great speakers, it's, it's, I'm happy with it. I mean, it sounds like I'm self-congratulatory, but I'm really happy with, with how it's turned out.

Cause it's really hard to put on a conference. Like if you've ever done it, like don't do it unless you're really motivated. Cause it is, it's, it's very hard. And so I'm sympathetic to other conferences. Like I get it. Um, it's, it's not easy, but pretty, pretty happy so far. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, I'm, I'm sure it is far more work than people realize. I mean, anything like that, so much more goes, goes on behind the scenes than anyone who's not actually running it can really understand. So I'm definitely, definitely grateful that you've taken the time and money to put into this, to build a, just really a space for those people who want to learn more and who want to, to gain practical knowledge about freedom, about sovereignty, about privacy, um, and really be able to take those things home. So I'm really excited to, to see how the people who are attending jump in. And I think it's a really cool idea that you're doing cheaper tables. It's not just something where a company can chime in and kind of get their name out there, but a place where

regular people can also show off the things they've been working on. I think that's a really fascinating concept I haven't heard of at other conferences. Thanks. Yeah. It was a big hit this last year. Um, like it, it, it almost concerned me because there was a lot of people who were, weren't going to a couple of the talks and I was like, oh shoot, like what's going on? Like this, some of the chairs are empty. And then I go into the conference room that had the exhibitor tables. It's like, it was packed. I mean, I couldn't believe it. And people were complaining like, oh, this space is too small for the exhibitors. And, you know, I'm like, well, isn't that a good thing? So it was sort of, again, not, not on purpose that it happened, but it just, it just did. So yeah, pretty stoked.

That's a good, a good problem to have there for sure. Um, I'd love to hear a little bit more about the pairing of the right to bear arms and firearms and DIY firearms and Bitcoin. I think that's a, it's a combo that makes sense to me, but may not be something that's clicked for other people. Um, so I'd love to hear a little bit more about like, what was it that brought those things together? Was it just your personal love of those two things or is there a kind of a synergism that you see between those two things in the real world?

Well, it is just part of my life. It's dominating part of my life of where I spend my time and money are those two things, firearms and Bitcoin. But for me, it's also a deeply philosophical pairing because I see both, uh, guns and Bitcoin as an asymmetric defense against more powerful adversaries. So in the case of guns, it's pretty obvious, right? Like if it's you against five other people, if you have the gun and they have the knives and that gives you an asymmetric defense. Um, it also is about self-reliance. So I don't want to rely on the police. If I hear something in the middle of the night of my window cracking at my front door, I don't want to wait five minutes and depend on, on the police. So I need to rely on myself to defend myself. Right. And so that's what's guns. And then with Bitcoin, it's the same thing that using cryptography, I have a way to transact where a more powerful adversary can't really stop me. It's very hard to stop me from sending Bitcoin. It's really hard to seize my Bitcoin, even though the adversary is extremely

more powerful than me. And then obviously it goes back to self-reliance as well, where I don't rely on a third party bank, a third party payment processor, um, a third party custodian. It's, it's just amazing that I can have this bank, you know, in my wallet. Um, it's just, just to interact peer to peer. So it's, it's both my, my passions, but also truly like, uh, kind of a metaphysical, esoteric philosophical thing as well. Yeah. I think that, that concept of really kind of a force multiplier can apply to both. I'd never really considered that before, but they really do both act as a way to, to enable you when you're training, when you understand how to use the tools, um, when you're well-practiced and well-versed in them, both guns for self-defense and Bitcoin can be tools that help you to amplify your, your physical defense and your defense against inflation, your defense against censorship, your defense against monetary surveillance and control. They're things that can really make you able to withstand a lot more than you could without those things. That's why I do really see

that those things pair well together and not even to mention the fact that you may need, uh, you may need the ability to bear arms to defend having Bitcoin or Monero or something like that. Um, especially in the future. I mean, thankfully nowadays, that's not necessarily a need to have, but I think that's something that as governments start to realize what technologies like Bitcoin and Monero can, can do to providing an option out of surveillance and providing a way for people to opt out of a broken monetary system. Um, there definitely could be some, some fights ahead, hopefully not, but definitely could be something that that could be coming our way. So it's important that we're, we're really well trained in, in all of the practical ways that we can use both firearms for those people who, who want to take that approach and, uh, Bitcoin, Monero using those things properly.

Yeah. And the power, I like that you said force multiplier and the power also comes when there's, um, more than one, right. When there's a community, when there's peers and that's, that's where the force, the force multiplier really comes in because, you know, Bitcoin has a network, um, gun owners as a group of friends and people who know each other. That's when it really becomes, you know, something, something potent. And that's also, you know, going back to the conference for a second, like that's part of the purpose of the conference is for people to meet in person. I mean, there's, there's only so much you could do online and, and, you know, on discord and telegram and Twitter.

And, you know, like I've had a few people tell me like, Hey, I went to the conference and I met so-and-so and it's so great to meet him. And now we're doing this, we're doing that. We had a company that, that got, um, an investment who was there last year. So it's part of building the bonds in real life is the conference. So I, I believe in all, all of that. Yeah, absolutely. That, that community building aspect of conferences, I think really is the greatest piece of them. I think the talks are extremely important and they do give that, that opportunity for people to, to hear from people they respect and hear a lot of specifics on topics. And with Barron's and Bitcoin, I think really practical things, but building those relationships are really the things that are going to, to last and stick. And the things that people are learning from those talks, when they build a community, a network of people who were there, they can help to support each other as they take those practical steps, um, after the conference.

So I definitely do see that the, the community there can be, um, an important piece or maybe even the most important piece.

20:00 piece of a conference like Bear Arms and Bitcoin. Yeah. And it's a great way to settle disputes, too, because there's, you know, sometimes on Twitter and other areas, you can get into some debate with people. But when you meet them in real life and you talk and you're like, OK, this person, we have a lot in common and you form friendships. And it's just it's it's a great thing. Like there's nothing like meeting in person. Like when I first got involved in Bitcoin, I would go to the Bitcoin meetups and just, you know, met some great people and I would trade Bitcoin. I would use local Bitcoin back then, local Bitcoins. It's since gone, you know, the opposite way. But I used to use that. And then I'd trade with people that I met at these meetups. And hopefully, you know, people will meet at the conference and maybe they'll trade Bitcoin there at the conference or later on. Like just the community is so important. I think people who are into into into Bitcoin and firearms tend to be kind of individualist and probably

too far individualism. And I think it's so easy to fall into that trap of not realizing like no man is an island and like the adversaries are powerful and they're powerful partly because they work together. Right. And they're big. And and so just just something that like I have to remind myself, like it's important. Hey, get friends, get people you work with. Need them in person. Like it's important. Yeah, absolutely. A vital piece to this. So you mentioned a little bit earlier that you've decided to include Monero in this year's conference and start to kind of feature that a little bit as a tool that people can use.

Obviously, I'll be speaking on Monero and introducing that and answering some questions about that at the conference. What was it that prompted you to choose to include Monero? I know that in the Bitcoin space, things can be very, like you mentioned earlier, very religious, very maximalist and very like Bitcoin only. So I was surprised. I think a lot of people were surprised that you decided to include Monero in the conference and kind of allow Monero to participate there. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about what it was that prompted you to make that decision. Well, that's what's great about having your own conference. You could do what you want.

And that's what I'm all about. And so I knew there'd be pushback, but I just didn't care. So how it came about was that I obviously I had my eye on Monero for a while, didn't get too involved in it, but kind of watching it, studying up on it and just observing really. And then I thought, you know, I'm, I need to practice what I preach here. And so I started accepting Monero on our store. You know, we sell like hats and T-shirts and sweatshirts and things like that. And we, and, and also for our conference, I thought, why don't we accept Monero? It's, it's, it's more private.

It's more fungible has other trade-offs, but it is more private and fungible than Bitcoin. So I did. And it was overwhelming positive reaction. I mean, just, it was surprising. We got so many orders using Monero. Like it, we had more people paying Monero than in Bitcoin and credit cards combined for a while. And I was like, I was shocked, but I was very happy, obviously. And so once, once I saw that reaction, I saw the support from everyone. I thought, okay, well, you know what? There's an appetite for this. Let's put it on the conference.

And then when I announced, you know, that you were going to be speaking and that we were going to feature Monero, it was kind of the same thing. Like people in the Monero community came out and said, Hey, I like this. And when's the conference? And they found us. And so I was, it's just been, it's one of the best decisions we've made to have Monero at the conference and to accept that it's been, been great. Yeah. It's, it's crazy to see the, the adoption that you saw very quickly there. It was cool to see you publish some of the info around that on Twitter and see some of the response. But I think that really kind of comes from both the ethos of the Monero community, which is very much that Monero is a tool. It's not just a speculative asset, but it's, it's a tool that can help you to, to spend and preserve your privacy and avoid censorship. And kind of the hodl mentality hasn't taken over as much in the narrow space. So I'm glad that that really showed itself there when you started accepting

it. But I think the other piece is really just that Monero is a powerful tool, especially for spending. It's, it's much simpler to spend privately than Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Not that you can't spend Bitcoin privately, but it's definitely something that's easier in Monero. So I know a lot of people who are kind of around the, the community of Barums and Bitcoin kind of treat Monero like cash, kind of like a checking account and then Bitcoin as a savings account and just use Monero to be able to spend quickly and not have to worry as much about privacy and then use Bitcoin for their long-term savings. And I definitely do see that that's, that's a valid approach. And it's really great to see the, the support for the conference so far from the Monero community. And I, I can't wait to see who will show up there as well from the community. I know I've been, obviously I will be there. I know a few others are going to be jumping in. So I'm excited to see Monero get folded in more there and really to see that

kind of symbiotic relationship that I think Bitcoiners and Monero users can have and to build out some of those relationships and just kind of connect, connect some people there that I think really do see eye to eye. But there's been some separation just over the kind of Bitcoin versus Monero debate that maybe shouldn't be there. I think there's a lot of value and I'm really excited for people to just be, exposed to options, able to choose for themselves, what works best for them, what fits into their, their threat models, their risk appetite, all that fun stuff, but really just to be exposed and get to get some questions answered and learn a little bit more.

Well, you bring up a good point about kind of the two camps of Bitcoin and Monero. And the other thing that this brought out was that there's, there's actually a large overlap. There's a large overlap of people who use both. And that's, that's the other thing that came out is people that I thought were, Oh, that's, that's a Bitcoiner guy. And then he's like, Oh yeah, Monero. Like I like it and I wanted it and, and, and vice versa. So that was, that was great to see. And I remember the first time I was using Monero and, and I gave someone my, my address and then I had to give someone else my address. And I'm like, wait, it's the same address because you know, I'm used to Bitcoin where it's like, okay, new address, new address for, for every time you do like a manual transaction. And then I'm used to coin joining and pay nims and which, which are great. Like they're great tools, but I'm like, Oh, no, no, no pay nims. Oh no, no whirlpool. Oh, well, well, this is dang easy. Like this is a lot easier. This is, you know, and then I remember when he was my first transaction, I looked up

something on a block explorer and I couldn't find it. Cause I think I entered in an address or something. And then I got this pop up or this message. It's like, what are you trying to do here? You can't, you can't look at this. It was some sort of funny message on the block. Like you can't look, you can't see this address or something. I'm like, okay, this is pretty fun. So yeah, there's a good meme around that on, on, I think the main blockchain explorer that there's a, a kind of a rich list link that you can go to. And it just talks about how there's, there's no actual way to see a rich list in Monero. So good luck. And then thanks for trying to take a look, but definitely some, so eyeopening things there when you first start using Monero and just get to see the, I think just the peace of mind that comes with using something that does have good sane defaults built in at the base layer. Obviously, like you mentioned, there are some trade-offs that come along with that.

And some of the stuff that I'll be talking about at the conference, talking about those trade-offs and giving an honest view about the pros and cons that come with the approach in Monero. But obviously the, the privacy and the peace of mind that comes with the simplicity of using Monero and not have to worry about as much about privacy is definitely something that, that I appreciate. And it's why I tried to spend Monero as much as possible. And then I fall back to Bitcoin if I can't spend Monero and then fall back to other PM methods if I have to, but definitely the approach that I take.

Yeah. And, and same, same approach with me. And also I think it shows that rather than debating people, I believe in just doing things and, and just trying things for myself because it's so easy to get caught up in like rhetoric and memes and just talking. And at the end, it's just like shooting guns. Like people are afraid of them or they're against them. But when you take them to the range, they're like, Oh, this is fun. I see now that the gun doesn't shoot itself. It's a piece of plastic and metal that you have to pick up and you have to load. And it's just, it's not this like living thing.

And, and same thing with like Monero, I use it and I was like, Oh, okay. Now I get it. Like I had read plenty about it, but not until you use it. And that's kind of like what we're trying to encourage people to do. So it's, you know, it's important to actually go out there and encourage people to do things and to do things, you know, I have to remind myself to do that too. I start, I start getting so excited about something. I study it till there's nothing left to read. And then I'm like, wait, come on, come on, Ragnar. Like just, just use it. Just do it.

Yep. Got to just buckle down and go hands on and see what works for you. Definitely a, a key piece of things there. So circling back to the broader conference itself, I want to just kind of hear some of your, your thoughts about what were some of the highlights for you at last year's conference. And just hear a little bit about what kind of the key things were were for you there. And then maybe what you're most excited for at this year's conference.

Well, that's a tough question. I mean, last year was so great. There was so many highlights for me, but off the top of my head, I would say that the, the vendor tables, exhibitor tables were great. We had some, like there was, there was, we had Samourai Wallet was there. We had Ronin Dojo was there. Then we had a bunch of 3d gun printed guys who had their creations. And so it was just, that was, that was, that was a big highlight. You know, I'd like to think that every speaker was excellent. So it's hard to pick, pick out one or two and play favorites. So I'll just leave it at that. And I think,

30:00 Just the overall experience. Like I went home after both days exhausted, but feeling really energized and really encouraged after just meeting people and talking with people. That was just the highlight of like how I felt when I got home that I knew that people were happy with the conference, that they felt like they got their money's worth. And I felt like, you know, this conference, it's so hard to put on when you're not a professional conference with a bunch of big money sponsors.

It's pretty, still pretty DIY for us. And so I think those were the highlights of last year. In terms of this year coming up, I think it's going to be probably same. We've got more speakers this year. So last year and the year before we had one day of speaking and then we had one day at the gun range. But this year, there's just going to be too many people and there's not a good outdoor gun range for us in Miami. So we're just going to do two full days of speakers and presentations.

And so that's opened up a lot more speakers to come in and we're going to have a little bit more variety. And some different, some new people. So I'm interested in seeing kind of the new speakers like you and some other guys and a couple of girls. And then I think finally, what I'm really excited about is our Freedom Technology Awards in memory of Jay Stark. I'm really excited about that. Yeah, I think it's a really cool idea. I can't wait to see kind of where those awards end up going.

And I'm really psyched for the slate of speakers that you have going on this year. Just a ton of people that I've come to respect in the Bitcoin circles, the privacy circles. Obviously, I'm super psyched that I'll get to speak this year. And I mean, I know that you're most looking forward to my presentation. Absolutely. I know you didn't want to say that, but just for listeners, I want to make sure that they know that. But I'm going to be on the front row taking notes.

There we go. Monero maximalist now. We'll put it on record. Oh, yeah. Great. Just what I need. No, I am just really excited for the lineup of speakers. And there's so many people there that I have kind of built relationships with over Twitter initially and then over Matrix, over Threema, lots of different connection points that I have with people there who are really deeply ethical, deeply driven people who want to see the best for the people around them.

And I think that's something that really gets me most excited for the conference is to be able to engage with those people face to face to build better relationships and just really to learn more about what it is that's driving these people to dedicate so much of their time, their energy, and their output into building tools, into educating about tools like Bitcoin, like guns, and really just get some face time with those people. So I am really excited for that.

And obviously, you have a ton of excellent speakers that you've got lined up as well. So I'm very pumped for that this year. Well, I agree with you on the people part, because, you know, in your daily life, maybe you go to work, you go to school, and then you run your errands, you go to whatever Costco, and you get gas. And so you interact with all these people that you don't really have much in common with. And then you see kind of all these bad things going on in the world.

And then you're on Twitter, and you see so many bad things and just bad actors. And then so to go to the conference and to actually meet and talk with these people that you respect and have formed a relationship with, it's just a breath of fresh air to be around people that you respect. I respect a lot of our speakers. I mean, obviously, all of them. But it's so great to be able to, once a year, be able to be around these people. And it's really energizing.

I mean, it's encouraging to actually see so many great people. Just realize, you know what, like, the world is a dark, ugly place. But man, there are some good people, you know? Yeah, absolutely. There are people fighting. And there's more of us joining all the time. So it's definitely an exciting piece of that that I'm looking forward to. Circling back to kind of some of the maybe logistics around the conference. Are there any specific things that people should know in advance about payment for the conference, about the venue, those kinds of things you want to kind of bring up or cover?

Yeah, thanks for asking that. I would say that buy a ticket if you haven't already, because we have early bird registration. It's only $200. And then after that, once we sell out of those, then it goes to standard registration, which is $375. And then if you're late, that's $500 for the ticket. So if you're thinking about going, buy a ticket now. Otherwise, you're going to be paying more later. That's the first thing I would say. The second thing is it's going to be my busy time in Miami with the Bitcoin Magazine conference and just kind of spring break.

So if you're thinking about going, definitely line up your hotels, your Airbnb. Get together with people and try to double up if you want to. So just kind of plan ahead because, you know, having done many conferences now, not just this, but for another organization that I had, I would say about half the people register in the last 30 days. So it makes their life a lot harder. And I feel bad for them because then I get these messages a few days before about, ah, what about this?

What about that? I'm just like, okay. But yeah, so to answer your question, yeah, try to plan early. Get a ticket now. Don't delay and just plan ahead. And we have a telegram group for people. So like, let's say you're looking to share a hotel room or, you know, maybe transportation to and from the airport, something like that. The last two years, people would post in telegram group just saying, hey, like, I'm going to get a hotel. Does anyone want to split it with me?

Or I'm driving down from wherever it was. And that's actually something impressive that's happened. Like, um, the first two years we had people drive. Um, we had in Austin and we had people drive from Ohio. We had one guy drive from Washington state. We had guys drive from, um, from Florida. Like people will, will drive it. And so, um, that was one of the things that people did in the telegram group was saying, I'm driving from such and such a place.

And they would pick someone up and then split off the driving. So that's what I would say. And it's in, it's in Miami, right? Yeah. This year it's in Miami. And we did that for two reasons. Cause we, we'd had an Austin the first two years, but we moved it to Miami. Um, because the Bitcoin magazine conference is going to be there. Theirs is their main days are Thursday and Friday. Ours is Saturday, Sunday. So we, we wanted to save people money. Cause we knew a lot of our, our attendees would be going to that conference.

So we're like, well, let's just save them money. So they only have to, you know, get one flight, one hotel. Um, and also we just thought we'd try it. Miami's like a really fun place. And we're like, well, we did the Texas thing, which is very cowboy and it's fun that way. But let's, let's do the beach thing and see what happens. So it's a bit of an experiment. We'll see if people are already partied out by the time Saturday comes along. But I'm, I'm pretty confident that people will be, will be happy to go to both.

And, uh, it's just going to be a great week in Miami. I think. Yeah, that's going to be a crazy week with all the conferences going on there. So it'll be a, it'll be a fun time for sure. Well, last question I had for you, Ragnar was just, how can listeners jump in and help support what you're doing with Barons of Bitcoin? Um, even if they're unable to attend. Well, I appreciate that question as well. Well, just, um, follow us on Twitter, join our telegram group and buy a t-shirt or hat.

It all adds up and helps us to fund, uh, what we do. And it also helps just kind of bring people together. So just, just those things. And we appreciate those things. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for jumping on Ragnar. I am super excited to be going to Barons of Bitcoin, speaking there to be a media sponsor and hopefully jumping in and interviewing some people while I'm there. And I'm just really excited for a conference that is kind of sticking close to the ethos that Bitcoin was started with.

Um, and really just sticking close to a cypherpunk and freedom focused ethos. I think there's a ton of value there, so I'm excited to attend. I hope a lot of listeners will learn a little bit more about the conference today, explore attending and, uh, checking things out. Um, if you are listening to this, I'll be there. I'd love to meet anybody who listens to opt out. And I'm excited to meet a ton of people who I've gotten to know in the Bitcoin space there as well.

So I'm super excited. Thank you for going through all of the effort to put on this conference. I'm sure it is a, a massive, massive amount of work. Um, so thank you for going through that effort and I'm really excited for it. Well, thank you. I appreciate that you're going to be speaking. We needed a Keystone Monero presentation and you're, you're it. So no, no pressure. It's all on you. Um, and just thanks for having me on, on your podcast. Um, I really appreciate your time.

And so looking forward to having this come out and, and meeting you in person in Miami in April. Heck yeah. I'm super excited, Ragnar. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. Thanks for listening. And I hope you enjoyed this episode of opt out. If you did, please take a moment and subscribe to the podcast, or if you're already subscribed, share it with one friend or family member this week. As always, you can check out the link to the guest content and contact info, as well as links to all of the tools we discussed in today's episode.

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